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Post by krux303 on Nov 17, 2019 12:38:18 GMT -5
How much power will the stock fuel system support?
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 17, 2019 16:02:04 GMT -5
based on an online calculator roughly 150 hp on the injectors at 95% duty cycle. you dont want to run them with the duty cycle that high though, generally 80% max. this calc says theyre good for 121 hp at 80% lol so take that as you may. I don't know that anyone has actually tested the limits of them theyre little 19 lb/hr injectors and honestly should just be replaced if youre after any horsepower.
i do remember someone years ago turboed on factory injectors and pump, IIRC the fuel pump hit 100% duty cycle at 2 or 3 pounds of boost. so not much power to be made there with boost. stock pump should be fine for NA use though.
datalogging your setup would tell you for sure if and when youll need to upgrade.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 17, 2019 18:11:13 GMT -5
based on an online calculator roughly 150 hp on the injectors at 95% duty cycle. you dont want to run them with the duty cycle that high though, generally 80% max. this calc says theyre good for 121 hp at 80% lol so take that as you may. I don't know that anyone has actually tested the limits of them theyre little 19 lb/hr injectors and honestly should just be replaced if youre after any horsepower. i do remember someone years ago turboed on factory injectors and pump, IIRC the fuel pump hit 100% duty cycle at 2 or 3 pounds of boost. so not much power to be made there with boost. stock pump should be fine for NA use though. datalogging your setup would tell you for sure if and when youll need to upgrade. Thanks bud for the help. I'm sure I have 150whp to the wheel or more. I have upgraded intake cam, long tube header, vct deleted with cam gears, intake, vit tune, full exhaust and i run wet nitrous.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 17, 2019 18:13:04 GMT -5
Also my biggest fear when upgrading the fuel injectors is what to do for tuning. If you change, I'm guessing it'll run like crap.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 17, 2019 19:06:01 GMT -5
i dynoed almost 150 wheel with the older style fat orange 19lb injectors from the 5.0 engine. i think it was supposed to be just the spray pattern that was different between them and our stock injectors but i swear i felt more mid throttle response from them, but i dont think it made a difference up top as WOT seemed the same on the butt dyno. anyhow, point im trying to make is perhaps you could swap to some of those in the short term?
i dont know what the injector duty cycle was then because my PCM doesnt have a PID for it, i can only log fuel pump duty cycle. LaSota SCT manual says for these types of PCMs to log fuel pump duty cycle and pressure drop across fuel injectors. apparently as long as youre maintaining the commanded fuel pressure and not pegging the fuel pump duty cycle the injectors are "ok". if anyone has more info on that please elaborate.
but if youre running all that and still on stock 19lb injectors id definitely swap out to 21s or 24s. tuning for other ford injectors is easy with sct. if youre running a wet shot of nitrous you might actually want more fuel pump.
i'm assuming you are running SCT right? you can log the aforementioned pressure drop across fuel injectors (or injector duty cycle if your PCM displays it) and returnless fuel pump duty cycle to see where youre at.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 17, 2019 19:14:49 GMT -5
i dynoed almost 150 wheel with the older style fat orange 19lb injectors from the 5.0 engine. i think it was supposed to be just the spray pattern that was different between them and our stock injectors but i swear i felt more mid throttle response from them, but i dont think it made a difference up top as WOT seemed the same on the butt dyno. anyhow, point im trying to make is perhaps you could swap to some of those in the short term? i dont know what the injector duty cycle was then because my PCM doesnt have a PID for it, i can only log fuel pump duty cycle. LaSota SCT manual says for these types of PCMs to log fuel pump duty cycle and pressure drop across fuel injectors. apparently as long as youre maintaining the commanded fuel pressure and not pegging the fuel pump duty cycle the injectors are "ok". if anyone has more info on that please elaborate. but if youre running all that and still on stock 19lb injectors id definitely swap out to 21s or 24s. tuning for other ford injectors is easy with sct. if youre running a wet shot of nitrous you might actually want more fuel pump. i'm assuming you are running SCT right? you can log the aforementioned pressure drop across fuel injectors (or injector duty cycle if your PCM displays it) and returnless fuel pump duty cycle to see where youre at. Thanks man for the info. I have a flip chip from sct that vit created. That means zero adjustability what so ever. If I could copy this tune someway somehow and put it on a pro racing package, I would. This is what is holding me up since the tune is awesome. If switching to a 24lb, what would happen? Would the car run horrible since its not dialed in.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 18, 2019 17:03:46 GMT -5
yeah anything besides the size that the computer is tuned for is probably not going to run right, will mostly run rich if at all. basically the computer thinks the injector needs to stay open for X amount of time (actually defined as # per second fuel flow) in the tune. if you put in a larger injector the computer will hold it open for as long as a 19# injector needs to be except you will have a larger injector which will release more fuel in the same amount of time. ACTUAL DATA FROM FACTORY TUNE: injector break point : 0.0000106 - point at which computer shifts from low slope to high slope hi slope : 0.00484 - hi injector flow rate low slope : 0.00584 - low injector flow rate, both in # per second of fuel flow minimum pulse width : 0.000000 - should be set to a value when the injector is still in its linear range SCT says multipling the slope value by 3600 will give you # per hour. my math shows the values as 17.424#/hr for high slope and 21.024#/hr for the low slope in my factory tune. SCT Values for 24# injector: injector break point : 0.0000118 - higher, the 24# should be switched to high slope sooner hi slope : 0.0067000 - 24.2#/hr low slope : 0.0072000 - 25.92#/hr minimum pulse width : 0.0006980 - longer, the 24# should be held open longer thats alot of words and some numbers, but read it then read this injectordynamics.com/articles/ford-injector-characterization/ then read it again. should make more sense lol
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Post by krux303 on Nov 18, 2019 17:52:52 GMT -5
yeah anything besides the size that the computer is tuned for is probably not going to run right, will mostly run rich if at all. basically the computer thinks the injector needs to stay open for X amount of time (actually defined as # per second fuel flow) in the tune. if you put in a larger injector the computer will hold it open for as long as a 19# injector needs to be except you will have a larger injector which will release more fuel in the same amount of time. ACTUAL DATA FROM FACTORY TUNE: injector break point : 0.0000106 - point at which computer shifts from low slope to high slope hi slope : 0.00484 - hi injector flow rate low slope : 0.00584 - low injector flow rate, both in # per second of fuel flow minimum pulse width : 0.000000 - should be set to a value when the injector is still in its linear range SCT says multipling the slope value by 3600 will give you # per hour. my math shows the values as 17.424#/hr for high slope and 21.024#/hr for the low slope in my factory tune. SCT Values for 24# injector: injector break point : 0.0000118 - higher, the 24# should be switched to high slope sooner hi slope : 0.0067000 - 24.2#/hr low slope : 0.0072000 - 25.92#/hr minimum pulse width : 0.0006980 - longer, the 24# should be held open longer thats alot of words and some numbers, but read it then read this injectordynamics.com/articles/ford-injector-characterization/ then read it again. should make more sense lol Damn. I'll have to see if one of those obd2 readers shows duty cycle and if I can see what percentage I am running at. I'm sure I am maxing out the injectors but stuck if I go in a tume program as I am not exactly sure how vit tuned it. Hmm....maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 18, 2019 19:00:15 GMT -5
I see there is an option to write to the "chipper" within SCT PRP but you would still need the chipper interface itself. And at that point I don't think you can read the tune from the chip. I cant seem to find any way to do it with my X4, only write.
Ultimately the tune is on vits computer somewhere, if he even still has it. Sucks, but unless vit is willing to share (LMFAO, sorry) the tune you're going to have to tune it again.
I've got no first hand nitrous tuning experience, but I can see why its on the flip chip. With the x3 or x4 you would constantly be flashing between nitrous and no nitrous tunes whenever you want to spray. Would get old real quick I'd imagine.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 18, 2019 19:21:30 GMT -5
I see there is an option to write to the "chipper" within SCT PRP but you would still need the chipper interface itself. And at that point I don't think you can read the tune from the chip. I cant seem to find any way to do it with my X4, only write. Ultimately the tune is on vits computer somewhere, if he even still has it. Sucks, but unless vit is willing to share (LMFAO, sorry) the tune you're going to have to tune it again. I've got no first hand nitrous tuning experience, but I can see why its on the flip chip. With the x3 or x4 you would constantly be flashing between nitrous and no nitrous tunes whenever you want to spray. Would get old real quick I'd imagine. Good point. Do you think SCT could read the tune from the chip if I were to send it in? I'm open for getting a new software with flexibility to upgrade my fuel system. Thanks for talking this throughout me. I need to get more performance parts on my car this year. Vit is an ass and wont help out at all. I wish I got the file someway somehow.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 18, 2019 19:38:34 GMT -5
It surely wouldn't hurt them to call and ask. I'm just a guy with SCT PRP and don't see any way I can do it, perhaps an SCT dealer with the chipper interface could do it?
What's the car used for mainly? SCT is great at taking control of the factory computer if you have emissions requirements or want to retain the factory computer for whatever reason, but an aftermarket computer is light years ahead as far as functionality goes. For instance in megasquirt you could have an input (spraying nitrous) to the ECU so that it can switch fuel and or spark tables (or whatever you want there are alot of options) to accommodate on the fly. No need for even flipping the chip. just hit the button.
However, all of that will need to be setup and programmed before hand so you'll be tuning it again anyhow just with a different/better system. There is certainly alot more to megasquirt vs creating an SCT tune and flashing an interface (handheld or chip).
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 19, 2019 20:25:36 GMT -5
ive been thinking about those numbers for the flow of the factory fuel injector.
if the injector does flow 21#/hr on the high slope and 17#/hr on the low slope why are they called 19# injectors? average the two numbers and you end up with 19.2, maybe thats why? interesting that the 24# injectors are more linear. anyhow, if the factory zx2 "19#" injector actually flows 21#/hr at 80% duty cycle you can expect to support 135 HP, 160 HP at 95% duty cycle.
and again ive got no clue of what the injector duty cycle is under factory conditions, let alone a modified setup. my computer doesnt have a PID for it. SCT says if fuel pressure drop across injectors is good and the fuel pump duty cycle doesnt peg then the injectors are ok.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 20, 2019 11:37:53 GMT -5
It surely wouldn't hurt them to call and ask. I'm just a guy with SCT PRP and don't see any way I can do it, perhaps an SCT dealer with the chipper interface could do it? What's the car used for mainly? SCT is great at taking control of the factory computer if you have emissions requirements or want to retain the factory computer for whatever reason, but an aftermarket computer is light years ahead as far as functionality goes. For instance in megasquirt you could have an input (spraying nitrous) to the ECU so that it can switch fuel and or spark tables (or whatever you want there are alot of options) to accommodate on the fly. No need for even flipping the chip. just hit the button. However, all of that will need to be setup and programmed before hand so you'll be tuning it again anyhow just with a different/better system. There is certainly alot more to megasquirt vs creating an SCT tune and flashing an interface (handheld or chip). The car is my summer car and only driven 100-200 miles in the summer. I want to add more performance but stuck due to this. I will contact the dealer and see if they have tips or tricks.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 20, 2019 14:43:18 GMT -5
It surely wouldn't hurt them to call and ask. I'm just a guy with SCT PRP and don't see any way I can do it, perhaps an SCT dealer with the chipper interface could do it? What's the car used for mainly? SCT is great at taking control of the factory computer if you have emissions requirements or want to retain the factory computer for whatever reason, but an aftermarket computer is light years ahead as far as functionality goes. For instance in megasquirt you could have an input (spraying nitrous) to the ECU so that it can switch fuel and or spark tables (or whatever you want there are alot of options) to accommodate on the fly. No need for even flipping the chip. just hit the button. However, all of that will need to be setup and programmed before hand so you'll be tuning it again anyhow just with a different/better system. There is certainly alot more to megasquirt vs creating an SCT tune and flashing an interface (handheld or chip). The car is my summer car and only driven 100-200 miles in the summer. I want to add more performance but stuck due to this. I will contact the dealer and see if they have tips or tricks. I use the car as only a summer car. I look at it as my performance fun car. As for vit, he was something else when holding these tunes. I'm sure its nothing too special and another tuner could figure out. The question is what tuner could or would?
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Post by krux303 on Nov 20, 2019 14:45:55 GMT -5
ive been thinking about those numbers for the flow of the factory fuel injector. if the injector does flow 21#/hr on the high slope and 17#/hr on the low slope why are they called 19# injectors? average the two numbers and you end up with 19.2, maybe thats why? interesting that the 24# injectors are more linear. anyhow, if the factory zx2 "19#" injector actually flows 21#/hr at 80% duty cycle you can expect to support 135 HP, 160 HP at 95% duty cycle. and again ive got no clue of what the injector duty cycle is under factory conditions, let alone a modified setup. my computer doesnt have a PID for it. SCT says if fuel pressure drop across injectors is good and the fuel pump duty cycle doesnt peg then the injectors are ok. Is there a cheap way to figure out PID? I wonder if one of those obd2 scanners (blue driver) can pull this data. The S/R was 145hp at crank stock? Is that 160HP crank or wheel that you are referring to?
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 20, 2019 17:05:31 GMT -5
I dont think youre going to see the injector duty cycle on any of the cheaper interfaces or software out there. Over the years I've used the ScanGuageII, UltraGuage, various OBD2 to USB or Bluetooth adapters and countless softwares on both PC and mobile (android). I think with an OBD2 to USB/bluetooth adapter and the FORScan software (PC or android IDK about apple) would be the closest you might get to see if your computer even supports that PID. From there SCT/Sniper (HP Tuners? IDK never used it on a ford) or Ford's interface/software would be the only other way I would know.
But honestly its not *that* important if the factory computer itself isnt even concerned with monitoring it right? Alot of vehicles from ford around the time of the ZX2s production stopped supporting it. Thankfully we have the benefit of the returnless fuel system that is monitoring pressure drop across the injectors and control over and monitoring of the fuel pump. We can raise pressure (as the factory tune does) to increase the effective "size" (remember "size" is amount of fuel over time) of the injector....to a point. Ultimately if your pressure drop across injectors stays where its commanded and the fuel pump can keep up with the demand, AND your AFR stays stable youre fine.
If youre really worried about running out of injector get a tuning setup of your choice, swap injectors and tune for them. Any tuner worth a damn should be able to do it, honestly. Problem seems to be with shady tuners or maybe they honestly just dont know what theyre doing/what kind of system theyre working on. Vit definitely was good at it, and sharpened his teeth on the ZX2 and moved on...cant blame the guy honestly for that (the teamzx2 server thing is a whole nother story tho lol)
If its your fun time car, I'm on the same page thats what TheEvilZX2 is to me. I'd highly suggest learning and doing it yourself if possible. We (you, me, a tuner, whoever) might never be able to recreate Vit's tune exactly but as you change things on your setup the optimal tune is going to change and being able to do it and understand it yourself makes it all the easier.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 20, 2019 17:09:41 GMT -5
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Post by krux303 on Nov 20, 2019 18:56:15 GMT -5
Gosh your a wealth of knowledge on this so thank you!
I thought I read that SCT no longer support prp due to emissions and got busted for it? Being a complete noob to this, id be looking for easiest interface.
Your fuel summary does make sense. I wonder if I could put a wide band in my second 02 sense hole in my exhaust. Since it's deleted right now, no nees for it.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 20, 2019 20:58:46 GMT -5
Youre welcome About a year ago SCT mandated everyone using the software do this certification for emissions on some training webiste they setup. Those who didnt complete it in time had problems, but thats all ive heard about that. As far as Ford tuning goes, SCT is the go to. If youre considering a PRP purchase i would suggest lasota racing. You can get the PRP software, an interface if you need one, and I'm always going back to the tuning guide to make sure im not crazy so i would suggest that too especially for being a noob. lasotaracing.com/products/sct-pro-racer-software?variant=30182220136518You can totally put your wideband in the second O2 bung as long as there isnt a catalytic converter infront of it. I ran TheEvilZX2 like this for years with the zxtuner header.
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Post by krux303 on Nov 21, 2019 10:01:37 GMT -5
Youre welcome About a year ago SCT mandated everyone using the software do this certification for emissions on some training webiste they setup. Those who didnt complete it in time had problems, but thats all ive heard about that. As far as Ford tuning goes, SCT is the go to. If youre considering a PRP purchase i would suggest lasota racing. You can get the PRP software, an interface if you need one, and I'm always going back to the tuning guide to make sure im not crazy so i would suggest that too especially for being a noob. lasotaracing.com/products/sct-pro-racer-software?variant=30182220136518You can totally put your wideband in the second O2 bung as long as there isnt a catalytic converter infront of it. I ran TheEvilZX2 like this for years with the zxtuner header. Thanks for the link since I'll consider this over the winter and this is a strong consideration. Vit was talking to me last night and mentioned tuning a zx2 is easy and it came across as it would be easy to duplicate. I'm throwing a hail Mary but maybe he would say a little more what is in the tune. Shit, if hooking a wideband is that easy right there, I'll be game to buy it this winter. I believe the o2 will screw right into o2 bung? I dont have a cat as emissions is not required in my state.
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Post by TheEvilZX2 on Nov 21, 2019 16:05:34 GMT -5
yeah the ZX2 seems pretty easy. hell ive been boosted on my own tunes for about two years now, so theres that.
yeah the wideband will drop right in, o2 bungs are all threaded the same. I like innovate, some like AEM. pick your poison, there are other brands as well but AEM and Innovate are probably the most widely used.
I like innovate because they have both a simulated wideband and narrowband outputs. This allowing you to datalog the wideband output and feed the factory computer a narrowband output if you wanted to replace the upstream sensor (this is what im doing)
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Post by krux303 on Nov 21, 2019 20:38:23 GMT -5
yeah the ZX2 seems pretty easy. hell ive been boosted on my own tunes for about two years now, so theres that. yeah the wideband will drop right in, o2 bungs are all threaded the same. I like innovate, some like AEM. pick your poison, there are other brands as well but AEM and Innovate are probably the most widely used. I like innovate because they have both a simulated wideband and narrowband outputs. This allowing you to datalog the wideband output and feed the factory computer a narrowband output if you wanted to replace the upstream sensor (this is what im doing) Good to know. I reached out to SCT too btw.
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